`peOn
25th April 2002, 08:28
On Wed Apr 24 10:38:33, TillerMaN wrote:
> First of all thanks for telling us that only minor changes are
> going to be made and with that in mind I want to address some
> easily corrected anomalies regarding random items. It's basically
> only number changes right?
> First off I talked to a lot of the top players, I'm not going to
> name names because some asked me not too but the following
comprise
> thoughts of other "good" players.
> I am not sure your stance on random items, are you willing to take
> out random items altogether for instance and test it with set
> positions for items? I heard that you had been testing this
> in-house. This is what I would like to see, I think it would add
> ton's of strategic depth to the game, it also would not just be a
> rush fest. It will actually make you think, consider your
position,
> build the optimal hero for your spot, learn maps, vary strategies
> depending on what items you are going to try for and YES fight
over
> good items? What's bad about that, that can only be fun, I can
> easily envision some great battles lasting 10 minutes or more over
> top items.
> Here is a list of major problems with random items:-
> #1 Health potions and Mana Potions being dropped by same creeps,
> Mana potions are significantly better than health potions and yes
> it can turn the game.
> #2 Getting an "aura simulation item" such as Legion of
> Doom Horn(Unholy Aura), or that Flute of Accuracy thing(Potm's
> Aura) when you already have those heros as the items aura will not
> stack. It is obviously totally wrong to fight the toughest creep
on
> the map for a useless item? High level items are generally poorly
> balanced for instance there is a cloak of flames (permanent
> immolation), compare that too a useless(sometimes) aura item.
> #3 Mud Golems on Tranquil will sometimes drop 1 tome, sometimes 2
> and sometimes even just a mana pot? Ridiculous.
> #4 Mana and Energy pendants are generally sucky because they only
> add too your total mana rather than aid regeneration.
> #5 Getting Claws + 15 for a lich?
> I could go on and on and on, there is going to be no way to
> balance random items for competitive play.
> Solution? No random items!!!!
> At least let us test it and don't dismiss a very easy fix out of
> hand. I heard you were testing this in house anyway.
> We are not going to moan/complain anymore about Upkeep/Resource
> Issues/Heroes/Creeps but on this issue, I really think random
items
> will screw this game up harshly.
> Only other possible solution if you really want to keep some type
> of randomness is too make creeps always drop similar items, so
mana
> items, strength items etc. I'd still prefer no randomness at least
> for testing purposes via a patch.
> I'd like to hear your thoughts on this Rob(whoever).
> TillerMaN
> http://www.theinclan.com
> This is not Starcraft, it's only a Beta, read the Faq?
Subject:
From:
Date:
Re: Suggestions Rob regarding random items!
TPark
Wed Apr 24 18:35:44
Just so you know, this is an ongoing debate even within the
development team and rest assured that we're not putting the issue
aside or ignoring it by any means...
For those that haven't seen posts on the mechanics behind item
dropping, I'll refresh your memory... Item dropping is entirely
determined by the map maker through the world editor... He/she can
determine exactly what is dropped and the ratio that determines its
frequency of dropping. So if we want to eliminate random drops,
it's just a matter of making sure there is only one item on a given
creep and that the chance of it dropping is 100%.
You've probably noticed through the beta that the drops have been
changing per map... This is done largely in response to your (beta
testers) feedback on items as well as our attempts to make the maps
more balanced. Unfortunately, since we're busy making the game, we
don't have as much time to play the beta (and believe me a lot of
us would love to play the beta all the time) so the level designers
have to make judgement calls on item drops based on their own
experience and the feedback that makes its way to them.
If you guys feel adament on eliminating random items for
competitive play - by all means, please send in your thoughts on
exactly what items you think would be useful on maps and what
level/rarity you think those items should be. I know Rob and the
level designers would love to hear your thoughts on what would make
the best static items for competitive maps. Keep in mind that not
every hero is the same (they have different primary attributes and
skills after all) and so having items like Belts of Giant Strength
+6 will only be beneficial for some heroes and may bottleneck the
strategies available for that map.
And even after the game is released and everyone is playing, we
will have the ability to further adjust drops and drop ratios
should the map need it for balance. If a map is completely
unbalanced, we will even be able to pull it from the possible
selection in standard/arranged team games to help out the
competitive environment on Battle.net.
Lastly, I really doubt that random item dropping will be removed
completely from the game since it does add replayability value for
maps. Granted it may not, at least in its current state in beta
maps, be the best for competitive play - but remember there's a
whole host of people out there that highly prefer singleplayer or
small personal games that random item dropping will most likely
appeal to.
So if you've made it this far into the post, I guess the moral of
the story is: Gather up your suggestions on how you think static
item dropping might work and send them in! That's why you're beta
testing after all ;)
TPark (Warblade!)
Game Artist
> First of all thanks for telling us that only minor changes are
> going to be made and with that in mind I want to address some
> easily corrected anomalies regarding random items. It's basically
> only number changes right?
> First off I talked to a lot of the top players, I'm not going to
> name names because some asked me not too but the following
comprise
> thoughts of other "good" players.
> I am not sure your stance on random items, are you willing to take
> out random items altogether for instance and test it with set
> positions for items? I heard that you had been testing this
> in-house. This is what I would like to see, I think it would add
> ton's of strategic depth to the game, it also would not just be a
> rush fest. It will actually make you think, consider your
position,
> build the optimal hero for your spot, learn maps, vary strategies
> depending on what items you are going to try for and YES fight
over
> good items? What's bad about that, that can only be fun, I can
> easily envision some great battles lasting 10 minutes or more over
> top items.
> Here is a list of major problems with random items:-
> #1 Health potions and Mana Potions being dropped by same creeps,
> Mana potions are significantly better than health potions and yes
> it can turn the game.
> #2 Getting an "aura simulation item" such as Legion of
> Doom Horn(Unholy Aura), or that Flute of Accuracy thing(Potm's
> Aura) when you already have those heros as the items aura will not
> stack. It is obviously totally wrong to fight the toughest creep
on
> the map for a useless item? High level items are generally poorly
> balanced for instance there is a cloak of flames (permanent
> immolation), compare that too a useless(sometimes) aura item.
> #3 Mud Golems on Tranquil will sometimes drop 1 tome, sometimes 2
> and sometimes even just a mana pot? Ridiculous.
> #4 Mana and Energy pendants are generally sucky because they only
> add too your total mana rather than aid regeneration.
> #5 Getting Claws + 15 for a lich?
> I could go on and on and on, there is going to be no way to
> balance random items for competitive play.
> Solution? No random items!!!!
> At least let us test it and don't dismiss a very easy fix out of
> hand. I heard you were testing this in house anyway.
> We are not going to moan/complain anymore about Upkeep/Resource
> Issues/Heroes/Creeps but on this issue, I really think random
items
> will screw this game up harshly.
> Only other possible solution if you really want to keep some type
> of randomness is too make creeps always drop similar items, so
mana
> items, strength items etc. I'd still prefer no randomness at least
> for testing purposes via a patch.
> I'd like to hear your thoughts on this Rob(whoever).
> TillerMaN
> http://www.theinclan.com
> This is not Starcraft, it's only a Beta, read the Faq?
Subject:
From:
Date:
Re: Suggestions Rob regarding random items!
TPark
Wed Apr 24 18:35:44
Just so you know, this is an ongoing debate even within the
development team and rest assured that we're not putting the issue
aside or ignoring it by any means...
For those that haven't seen posts on the mechanics behind item
dropping, I'll refresh your memory... Item dropping is entirely
determined by the map maker through the world editor... He/she can
determine exactly what is dropped and the ratio that determines its
frequency of dropping. So if we want to eliminate random drops,
it's just a matter of making sure there is only one item on a given
creep and that the chance of it dropping is 100%.
You've probably noticed through the beta that the drops have been
changing per map... This is done largely in response to your (beta
testers) feedback on items as well as our attempts to make the maps
more balanced. Unfortunately, since we're busy making the game, we
don't have as much time to play the beta (and believe me a lot of
us would love to play the beta all the time) so the level designers
have to make judgement calls on item drops based on their own
experience and the feedback that makes its way to them.
If you guys feel adament on eliminating random items for
competitive play - by all means, please send in your thoughts on
exactly what items you think would be useful on maps and what
level/rarity you think those items should be. I know Rob and the
level designers would love to hear your thoughts on what would make
the best static items for competitive maps. Keep in mind that not
every hero is the same (they have different primary attributes and
skills after all) and so having items like Belts of Giant Strength
+6 will only be beneficial for some heroes and may bottleneck the
strategies available for that map.
And even after the game is released and everyone is playing, we
will have the ability to further adjust drops and drop ratios
should the map need it for balance. If a map is completely
unbalanced, we will even be able to pull it from the possible
selection in standard/arranged team games to help out the
competitive environment on Battle.net.
Lastly, I really doubt that random item dropping will be removed
completely from the game since it does add replayability value for
maps. Granted it may not, at least in its current state in beta
maps, be the best for competitive play - but remember there's a
whole host of people out there that highly prefer singleplayer or
small personal games that random item dropping will most likely
appeal to.
So if you've made it this far into the post, I guess the moral of
the story is: Gather up your suggestions on how you think static
item dropping might work and send them in! That's why you're beta
testing after all ;)
TPark (Warblade!)
Game Artist